EP. 42 — A ROUNDTABLE WITH THE FACES OF DEMOCRACY
(Transcripts may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.)
Weston Wamp: I'm Weston Wamp, and this is “Swamp Stories,” presented by Issue One.
Spenser Mestel: Voting is intimidating and people get nervous about making a mistake. Poll workers can allay those concerns. I'm sure everyone here has seen a first time voter, a newly naturalized citizen, or someone who's just turned 18, and I dare you to not cry when that person comes in and vote because they are so excited. And that's how we hope that everyone feels,
Brianna Lennon: 70% of my election costs are just the cost of training and paying for poll workers. If we have to bring in more people, then that increases the cost of elections, when we don't have state resources coming in and we don't have federal resources coming in.
Justin Roebuck: This is a pretty big deal, this is a sacred thing when you think about it, a lot of nations around the world struggle through the democratic process. We really need to invest in doing this right, and ensuring that we can protect the method by which people are choosing their government.
Carly Koppes: I've received my number of death threats. But with what we're finding is a lot of our laws don't have enough teeth. And so having that balancing act between voter rights, but then also first amendment rights, along with just trying to get our laws to have a little bit more teeth, is what is really struggling right now.
Barb Byrum: Criminal charges are being brought, some have actually been convicted as a result of their actions, but many others are getting away with harassing and targeting civil servants that just want to make sure our democracy goes on and make sure that every vote is counted. And I think this is the result of the former president and his actions.
Lisa Deeley: I believe that one of the things that we need to do is we need to get back to the basics and start teaching people again about the basics of why it's important to vote, why we vote, what elections look like, why they're local, why they're done differently in different places.
Weston Wamp: "Election officials and poll workers are our friends, family, and neighbors. They are dedicated workers who manage a vital part of our democratic infrastructure. But because of a massive election disinformation campaign led by former President Trump and his allies, they have become the target of threats, intimidation, and harassment — adding to their already challenging job.
"That's why Issue One recently launched Faces of Democracy to amplify the voices of election workers. The campaign aims to educate the public about how our elections work, as well as advocate for needed improvements to our elections — like regular and sufficient funding from Congress for state and local election administration, and increased protections for election workers and their families from violent threats. Check out this episode's show notes for more information on Faces of Democracy, or visit Issue One's website at IssueOne.org to learn more."
This is episode 42: A Roundtable with the Faces of Democracy
Recently I hosted a bipartisan conversation with six Americans who play varying roles overseeing elections across our country.
Barb Byrum, Clerk for Ingham County, MI
Lisa Deeley, Philadelphia City Commissioner
Carly Koppes, Clerk and Recorder for Weld County, CO
Brianna Lennon, Clerk for Boone County, MO
Spenser Mestel, a NY Poll worker and independent journalist
Justin Roebuck, Clerk and Register for Ottawa County, MI
I hope you enjoy our lively and frank discussion about challenges they see now and in the future in order to protect American elections.
Weston Wamp: Spenser, since your perspective here is really at a kind of grassroots level, talk a bit about why election workers matter. Again, it's one of these things that you don't think about when everything's going exactly as it should, obviously an important conversation given what we all went through in 2020, and some of the concerns heading into 2022.
Spenser Mestel: Yeah, I would say most people shouldn't think about elections, it should be something that you do, hopefully you do it often and it's seamless. You don't wait, you walk into a poll site, if that's how you choose to vote, you get your ballot, you put it in a machine most likely, and then you leave. But that is not the case in a lot of parts of the country. And every time that there is a problem, that there are jammed scanners, that there are lines out the door, that is really, I think, a place where people can start to be radicalized, because that's when you start to have questions, why is this taking so long? If we're just handing out ballots, what's the problem here?
Spenser Mestel: And so I just work in New York City's primary, we get there at 5:00 AM to start setting up. We did not get our key from the Board of Elections until 7:00, so we were about an hour and a half late opening up our poll site. It just looks bad, our Board of Elections is chronically making mistakes, is always underfunded, it is never doing its job that well. And so voters come at the beginning of the morning, probably before they go to work, and they can't vote because we're not open. And so even if that's not creating the distrust that we're seeing across the country, it's certainly creating frustration and anger and discouraging people from voting again.
Weston Wamp: One of the elected officials on the call, would you speak to the unusual, a lot of people don't realize the backbone of our system of elections in many ways are part-time or in some cases, even volunteer election workers, just the importance of those people showing up every cycle and really greasing the skids of our form of government?
Carly Koppes: I absolutely agree. I mean, here in Colorado, I mean, we wouldn't be able to have the level of elections that we do, if it wasn't for our community members, our church members, our people that come and volunteer for us every single election. I mean, I feel very fortunate, I've been in this for 18 years and there's some judges that have been back for 18 years. And so without them, we spend all year around in the elections department, making sure we have everything ready and prepped, the procedures all tuned, everything ready to go, I mean, all the way down to testing of the pens for them to use. And then we literally bring them in, they are taking time out of their lives, which we can't thank them enough for, to come in and serve in this biggest capacity and have them understand the gravity of their responsibility as well. I mean, we're talking about people's access to our living and breathing government.
Carly Koppes: And so for our community members to come in and volunteer, yes, we pay them, but still it's volunteering, to come in and do this work, we can never thank them enough and just how important it is for them to come in across the nation and serve in this capacity. Again, we can never just thank them enough for them coming in and doing this civic responsibility.
Weston Wamp: We could go on and on about how important these folks are to the way that elections work. We did a podcast episode coming out of the 2020 cycle, where I talked about the few faces, some that I couldn't even put names with, that I've always seen at my polling precinct here in Southeast Tennessee. And I just knew those people, I didn't know their political stripes, but I knew their commitment to our community. That, to those of us who've thought about it, is pretty obvious, but Justin and Brianna, I mean, I think back to back, go to y'all, give us some perspective on how you think we restore confidence in our elections, given that they are in fact carried out, not by some intimidating mothership that is full of conspiracies, but they're carried out by our neighbors.
Justin Roebuck: Yeah, that's a very good point. I think for me, elections is so much characterized by this decentralized grassroots nature of how elections work in our country. I mean, we are very much a decentralized system when it comes to that. And it is the election workers at the local level who are doing, they're working in their neighborhoods in many cases, and certainly the election officials who are oftentimes also elected by their communities to carry out this work. And I think that's a real strength of our system because it's not easily penetrated, it's not easily hacked because it's just so diverse and it spreads across America and mirrors the same image in so many different communities.
Justin Roebuck: But I think to your point of how do we restore confidence, what Spenser indicated about a voter's experience is so true. I think in so many ways the work that we do and our teams, needs to be about transparency, needs to be about explaining to the community, how we're doing what we're doing. And it comes down to the small things and the simple things in so many ways, something as simple as not having a key when you open up in the morning, that causes this ripple effect of voters being confused, or kind of distrustful of a system, those things matter. And the important aspect there is we need the resources to perform those tasks well and make sure that our communities are strong, and that the system is strong, that our communities can trust that. So I think a lot of that fostering of trust comes down to how we carry out our responsibilities as election administrators too.
Weston Wamp: Brianna, I mean, it's not that we should have to, or that you all should have to restore confidence, but it's obviously all in our best interest that people of all political stripes have confidence. How do we kind of share the message, to Justin's point, that it's very decentralized, extremely secure, and then as we'll get to in a minute, that so many of the people, many of you on this call, all of you probably are drawn to this work because you have a love of country and the processes, the institutions that make it what it is?
Brianna Lennon: I think one of the biggest challenges, I mean, the flip of the coin that Justin mentioned about being decentralized, is that because we're all doing things in different ways, it can be easy to look at a neighboring county, a neighboring state, cast dispersions on them and have voters calling you and asking why you're not doing things like another county or accusing you of doing things incorrectly, when it's just that the rules don't apply in my state versus another state. And that can be really difficult to overcome that education gap, because we have a hard enough time educating our own voters, and now we have to educate voters outside of our own jurisdiction. So a lot of the times when we get questions or distrust, it's coming from outside of our county, we're not getting calls from people that are voting at a local polling location. We're getting calls from people that are voting somewhere else, and assuming that we're doing things the same way, and they want to check on what we're doing.
Brianna Lennon: So a lot of it is telling our story, a lot of it is, I mean, it adds another thing to our plate that we haven't had to do before, but we need to kind of be sales people for how the process works, where before, we could rely on well, we have ... people don't need to know how it works, they're happy enough just coming in and casting a ballot and then going home. Now they want to know everything, which is great. I mean, that's what we've always asked for, is more people to be interested. But also, as Justin said, we don't necessarily have the resources to do it as well as we want to, so that can be a challenge as well. But I think the more it's happening and the more that people are talking about how we need resources for that and providing resources for that, that is going to help as well.
Weston Wamp: Lisa, talk about that. I've alluded to it for a minute, it's been my experience, both doing the podcast and then having grown up in a political family, that so many of the people who are drawn to election commission service or in a state or municipality where a clerk plays a role overseeing elections, these are some of the least partisan people that I've encountered over the years. They just believe in the institutions, they've overseen elections where their side has won and not won. What was your personal draw to the work that you do, and what do you sense is the motivation of your colleagues?
Lisa Deeley: I mean, for me, it's been in my family's blood, we've been involved in our community, involved in our neighborhood. My mother was a local committee person in our neighborhood. I ran for Judge of Elections at 18, I was the Judge of Elections for three years. So I've been pretty much involved in electoral politics in Philadelphia for over 30 years. I believe that it's the same person that you see that's volunteering to coach your kids basketball game or volunteering to be a troop leader at Girl Scouts or Boy Scouts. They are the same people that we are seeing that are stepping up to be election board workers, to be poll workers. For me, I saw an opportunity to turn my passion, which is helping people and making sure people are involved in the political process, because every election is important and we should all be working towards building this democracy and making it stronger.
Lisa Deeley: And the only way we do that is by voting and voting in every election. That's been instilled in me since I was a kid, and that's what I try to instill in people. And I had an opportunity to run for office in Philadelphia and really hone my skills in getting people engaged. Had no idea, quite honestly, when I first got elected, it was a little different than it is now, but we would now have to wear all these hats. And just to piggyback off of something that was already said about all the different hats we have to now wear, and a little problem like a key getting misplaced or misrouted and them not being able to open their polling place, a couple years ago, that would not have been the end of the world because accidents happened.
Lisa Deeley: Maybe somebody put it in the wrong bag, maybe it had the wrong number on it, somebody mistook a seven for a nine, things like that happen. But now what happens to that little problem is not only now is that polling place open late, but somebody put it on social media and now you have hundreds of people from all over, commenting on it. So what started out as a small little mistake, is now blown out of proportion into this huge conspiracy that we're stopping people from voting. So that really, for me, has been one of the biggest challenges, the social media and the misinformation and how everything just blows up.
Weston Wamp: Hey, Barb, your perspective is somewhat different, you were a state legislator, you're now operating at a local level. There's been a lot of talk coming out of 2020, even a documentary that got a lot of momentum on the right, about funding of elections, after the so-called Zuckerbucks were spread out across the country. We just did an episode on Zuckerbucks that I think is ... I think we did a pretty good job of kind of telling that story accurately. But it does raise a question that even though states and eventually locales are tasked with overseeing elections, those include federal elections, but federal funding comes in very unpredictable bunches. And so speak to what you think the role of the federal government in funding elections ought to be.
Barb Byrum: Well, I believe the feds should fund election administration to the level that they would fund our roads, our security. Election administration was deemed critical infrastructure back in 2016, but you certainly wouldn't know it based on the funding levels that we are seeing in election administration. This is an important service that so many of our neighbors, our families, and our friends depend on and work in. When I go to my polling location, I see individuals who have known me since I was four or five years old, when my mom took me to the polling location. And I believe that we need to stop focusing on Democrat and Republican, I'm partisanly elected in Michigan, but we must put democracy before Democrat or Republican.
Weston Wamp: Carly ... Spenser, go ahead.
Spenser Mestel: Yeah, sorry. I just wanted to go back to something that you said, kind of about the partisanship of our election officials. And so Barb can talk about this more, there's certainly a very concerted effort to get ... one party wants more people to be observing and working as election workers, I think it's very clear that is a bad faith effort and that those people are there primarily to disrupt the process. But I also want to emphasize that our system is not built around one or two people. And so when I'm working at a poll site, I am always working with another person and we are always being checked by our coordinator, and then the Board of Elections is going to go through and do a canvas and assure that everything is accounted for. And so, yes, we should be troubled by this influx of people, but also, I don't want the impression to be that if someone is elected Secretary of State or someone is an election worker, then our process is falling apart because it is more robust than that, we have checks and balances regardless.
Weston Wamp: Yeah, that's helpful. And we're going to come back before we're done, and I'd be curious to hear several perspectives on the role that poll watchers play. Quickly, Carly, and I think Spenser, you could speak to this, others of you, I'm sure in your offices, have similar concerns, but Carly you've just signed back up, and so I'm curious what you suspect is behind the wave of threats and harassment that's been leveled at election workers and election officials? It did not cause you to walk away, you've signed back up, and so you obviously are willing to take some more of the heat, but what's at the heart of that?
Carly Koppes: Well, clearly I need to get my head and examined, but first off, I think when we become a designated election official, I think there's two things that we all have in common, and one is, we're a little bit off our rocker and we like adrenaline rushes. So those are kind of the two things that we all have in common a little bit. And so with that, I'm not a person who is easily intimidated, and so for me, keyboard warriors are not going to detour me off of my passion for elections and what I do here in Weld County, as the clerk and recorder. Not only do I have elections, but I have the motor vehicle registration and titling office, I also have the recording department. So I'm in charge of all the land records and marriage licenses and civil union licenses.
Carly Koppes: And I ran for this seven years ago, the youngest to be elected in Weld County for a reason, because I knew I could do the job, and I knew that I had something to bring. And I still feel that way, and I'm not going to allow people who want to be keyboard warriors to deter me from that. A lot of things that have already been said, I think social media has emboldened a lot of people, that they feel like I can hide behind a computer and I'm not going to be discovered and I can say whatever I want. And there isn't that, if you see me in person, they're not going to say it to my face, and that's just kind of where we're at. And I have had interactions with people who have posted or emailed me not great, awesome things, and then two minutes later, I'm in the same room with them and they're hiding in the corner because they're like, "Oh crap, she's here. She still comes out in public."
Carly Koppes: And so that's just where we're at. And again, I know that I have a love and passion for elections, I grew up with them, I was the little girl running around when my grandmother was an election judge for years. I mean, my grandmother ran JFK Jr's campaign back in, early in his career, on the Western [inaudible 00:20:00] Colorado. So I come from a family that truly knows and understands how important it is to be involved. I mean, for crying out loud, I had an uncle who was a chief of staff for a U.S. Senator. So it's part of how I grew up, and this is my way of giving back and serving and honoring my family. All of my grandparents have now passed and they all have stories where they worked elections in some capacity. And so again, for me, it carried on the family legacy a little bit, and I'm not going to be intimidated by people who are in the same room as me, can't say what they just posted online two minutes ago.
Weston Wamp: Does anybody have anything to add there? Because I've got a question to follow up that I'd like to ask in kind of rapid fire and maybe in the same order, but if anybody wanted to chime in on what's behind all the threats, what is that? I think you're right, part of it is that we live in the age of the keyboard warrior, a lot of real tough guys at home.
Lisa Deeley: Yeah, I think the keyboard warriors is basically the most of it, but there also seems to be a real desire for people to just believe lies, because no matter what you say and how many times you can tell them and show them that what they think is not real, they just really want to believe it because they heard it somewhere or they read it somewhere. And it's getting harder and harder to push back because there's no facts, you're not fighting back facts, you're fighting back lies. And you keep saying the same thing, but they keep saying the same thing, so we just keep going in a circle. So I believe that one of the things that we need to do is we need to get back to the basics and start teaching people again about the basics of why it's important to vote, why we vote, what elections look like, why they're local, why they're done differently in different places.
Lisa Deeley: The redundancy that we have at every step of the way, that prevents any kind of fraud that is going to be so drastic that it would weigh a race as big as a national one. I too grew up in that same environment, my grandmother, my grandfather, my mother. I remember being in a barber's chair in an old polling place as a young girl, just sitting on the chair, just soaking it all in. This is my committed work, this is all of our committed work, and we rely on your neighbors and friends all around the country to help us get it done. That's what we really have to keep talking about because I think the more people realize that when you're saying there's fraud and you're saying that there's shenanigans going on, you're actually talking about your neighbor or the person that you stand at the bus stop with every day. You're online, you got a lot to say, but when you're next to the person, you're stymied for a thought.
Barb Byrum: So Weston, if I may, calls and threats are not just idle comments, there have been criminal charges against some of these individuals. In Michigan, we have 83 counties, so 83 county clerks, and of that, about two dozen have chosen either not to run for reelection or retire early, since the 2020 election. And that goes to show the amount of stress, the threats, the conspiracy theories, and just the hatred towards public servants, it goes to show what that has done to our democracy. And it is very concerning to me because many of those elected officials, those election officials, are being replaced by individuals who have bought into the conspiracy theories. And as a result, aren't doing the public accuracy tests or any of the security measures that we need to have done in order to continue to have safe and secure elections.
Barb Byrum: And these aren't just comments, if I leave you with anything, these aren't just comments. I'm sure you can Google search some of the comments that were left and the vile voicemails that were left for the Rochester Hills clerk. She has since resigned from office. They were horrible, I listened to them and I have pretty thick skin. And criminal charges are being brought, some have actually been convicted as a result of their actions, but many others are getting away with harassing and targeting civil servants, civil workers that just want to make sure our democracy goes on and make sure that every vote is counted. And I think this is the result of the former president and his actions and the way he talked about people in public. And I think people feel empowered to do the same to their neighbors, their family members, and in some cases, even their friends. And it takes a long time to rebuild trust when it is broken, and I think we need to start the rebuilding now.
Weston Wamp: Yeah, Barb, thanks. I mean, certainly by talking about keyboard warriors, I didn't intend, I don't think we intended to downplay, to your point, that these are the types of threats that have to be, given the severity, the vileness of them, I mean, it is a form of terrorizing our neighbors and those who either in elected positions or in volunteer positions. You've seen some of the most prominent Republican elected officials in the country, have faced and been very clear about even death threats. And so some of them may actually be empty threats, some of them certainly are not, but they are threats of such a serious nature that they require the action of law enforcement.
Weston Wamp: And that takes me to my next question, that really, I invite you all sort of quickly to give us a thought on how we protect election workers and what role local, state or federal law enforcement might play. I mean, I think there's a, certainly even seems like Capitol Hill, a bipartisan desire on some level to protect election workers, but how? I'd be curious to hear specifics from all of you who are on the ground. We could start with Justin, just in that order that we introduced ourselves. Justin, you want to lead us off?
Justin Roebuck: Yeah. I mean, I think there are a number of things that go into it, strong communication with law enforcement and election officials, I think is really an important aspect of this. And historically, when you think about the past couple of generations at least, in elections and election administration, we have not dealt with this level of threat to the physical security of election officials, but also election operations. And I think it just behooves us to make sure that we're doing the right things and taking the right actions to be in strong communication with law enforcement and to be able to plan ahead and understand what the potential threats might be, and to kind of give our election workers and our staff and our team, the best possible heads up and opportunity to plan through some of those things.
Justin Roebuck: But I also think that takes resources, I mean, law enforcement in many communities is also strapped. I think there is a need to ensure that we have the right resources to protect this. This is a pretty big deal, this is a sacred thing when you think about it, a lot of nations around the world struggle through the democratic process. I mean, we've seen it in emergent democracies all over the world. And I think in order for America to be the example of democracy that we have been for 200 years, we really need to invest in doing this right, and ensuring that we can protect the method by which people are choosing their government, it's a huge deal.
Weston Wamp: Lisa, we'll go right down the line, Lisa, Brianna, I think we went Carly, Spenser, Barb.
Lisa Deeley: Yeah, of course. And as somebody whose life was threatened and did receive death threats and was the recipient of some awful, really horrendous comments on social media, and having to have police protection, not just parked outside of my house, but physical police detail on me for days, believe me, I did not mean at all to downplay the keyboard warriors because I also know that there are very serious people out there. What do I think we need to do? As Justin said, we need to invest. If we're going to keep our employees safe and our infrastructure and election safe, there needs to be a monetary investment in that. Because a lot of counties, a lot of municipalities don't have the money for bulletproof glass and for fencing and for security guards and for metal detectors and all the things that we never needed before in election operations, that now we find that we do need.
Lisa Deeley: And we also need for our elected officials to remember that when they talk, it matters, people listen. So what needs to happen is we need to change the dialogue, we need everybody to start recognizing and respecting that we are an example for the rest of the world, that this democracy is precious and everybody needs to pitch in to help us defend it.
Weston Wamp: Brianna, just thoughts on how you can protect election workers in a way that the public will understand the threat and that is actionable here.
Brianna Lennon: I mean, I agree with what both Lisa and Justin said. I think one of the other things to keep in mind, and I say this with the privilege of not having direct death threats on me, is that I have, in this particular area, wanted to try to figure out how voting rights fits into this as well. Because I think that this is something that could be run away with that would potentially cause intimidation to voters. And the challenge is on both sides, if you have people there to disturb the process, then that's intimidating, if you have law enforcement there, that's intimidating. So it's a very real balance to strike, and I think that's one of the reasons why it's been hard to really come to a real consensus. While we're having that conversation, I think locally, we absolutely should have good communication, better resources for our local law enforcement for things.
Brianna Lennon: And we saw that happening in 2020, even leading up to 2020, everybody was really focused on creating emergency action plans and coup planning and making sure that we had all the processes in place, where if we were all forced out of the facility, or there was something that happened to our office, for voting equipment, we had backup plans. So planning obviously doesn't get us out of every situation, but making sure that we have thought through what potentially could happen and letting other elected officials know, as Lisa said, that their actions have an impact as well. I've also encountered a number of other local election authorities that if they haven't experienced these issues directly, don't always believe that they're really happening. If they're not happening to them, they may not perceive the severity of what can happen. And educating ourselves is also equally important, to make sure that we let our colleagues know that this is something that they need to take seriously.
Carly Koppes: And just to add on to what everybody else has said, I mean, I've received my number of death threats. I mean, I'm in Colorado, so obviously if you haven't heard of Tina Peters, you've been under a rock. So I definitely have received a lot of those type of threats. But with what we're finding is a lot of our laws don't have enough teeth. And so trying to, like was said prior, having that balancing act between voter rights, but then also first amendment rights, along with just trying to get our laws to have a little bit more teeth, is what is really struggling right now. I know that in Colorado, we did pass a bill this past legislation session, to take things from misdemeanors now up to felonies. But again, it's also what we're working with, with our DA Association, along with our AG and our County Attorney's Association here in Colorado, is trying to understand if I receive this type of threat or I'm perceiving this as a threat, who do I take it to first?
Carly Koppes: And again, trying to have more of a clear path for everybody in these situations to say, "Okay, this is what I've received. Do I reach out to my FBI contact or do I go to my county attorney or do I go to my sheriff or do I go to my DA?" And just trying to have more clearer path moving forward, I think that will also help in our conversations, if we have those clear paths, being able to then have the dialect with others outside of our world, to show, okay, now we have a clearer path and this is where we're weak and where we possibly could strengthen. Or maybe this is still considered in that gray area, which we all know, I mean, we all deal with laws every single day, so we know we have a ton of gray areas all over the place. But again, just trying to get more clarity, more clear preciseness at the federal level, at the state level and at the local county or jurisdiction level, is going to be one of the biggest conversations that we need to do.
Carly Koppes: And I know that we're having that, moving that forward here in Colorado, obviously I've been one of the top ones to start addressing that. I'm still in the single digits for death threats, I'm one away from entering those double digits. So it's just part of each individual person and how they feel and perceive things, and so you still have to have that room because I may perceive something as not as high level, but another clerk in Colorado may receive the same thing and they may perceive it as a high level threat. And so again, having that clarity and understanding, and kind of more clear definitions of what reaches what level, is my thought and process and kind of what we're working towards here in Colorado, when dealing and moving forward in this new world that we are in in elections.
Weston Wamp: Barb, do you have something to add because I have one more question and we'll wrap up today's conversation? We've got now quite a bit of good thoughts on how we can protect election workers.
Barb Byrum: Yeah, I think I would be remiss if I did not mention that there's been only one party that has been disruptive and their leaders have said nothing to condemn it. In fact, many of them have encouraged it. So we need to hold all of our elected officials accountable, to correct the record and not repeat the lies because it'll take a moment to lose trust in our election system and the integrity of our elections, and that trust will take years to rebuild.
Weston Wamp: Well, there are some of us Republicans who've tried to hold the line and tell the truth.
Justin Roebuck: If I could say something for the record too, it has certainly been predominantly one party this cycle, and it has been led by the leader of that party, which has a significant weight, but this is not a one party problem. I think we've seen instances of this more recently, coming out of some of the talks that we've had and some of the state laws that have changed in 2020, or as a result of 2020, where the other party has said, "You know what, we're going to take a serious look at certifying whether or not we should accept certification of votes coming from states that have repressive voter laws." So the rhetoric is high on both sides. We've had Democratic and Republican candidates not willing to concede elections. In 2016, we had a movement of the Democratic party, decide that they didn't really like the results of that election either, and we were under a pretty aggressive FOIA operation, for example, in the state of Michigan and other battleground states, we had a statewide recount here and in other states.
Justin Roebuck: And so I think we have to be careful. The other thing I want to be careful about too, is there's a lot of people with legitimate concerns about our election process. And we, as election administrators, sometimes it's so easy, I mean, I love what I do, I love this business and I'm passionate about it and I'm passionate about my colleagues and supporting and protecting them and having their back, but I also think we have to realize the areas where we can improve. We cannot simply say to folks like, "We did it right, you guys should go home." There are many ways we could do better, many ways we could be more transparent. I think we need resources and support to do that, but I think we have to continue to keep an open mind when we're talking with people.
Justin Roebuck: Now threats and violence are a whole other issue, and I completely and totally agree, I think something Lisa just said earlier, is that leadership matters and I'm an elected Republican, and I will say leadership matters. We had a devastating, devastating effect on our democratic process when the elected Republican president of the United States called our elections stolen and fraudulent, and he lied, he lied to people in my party. And so I definitely would put that out there very clearly, but I don't think it's a one party problem.
Carly Koppes: And I would absolutely have to agree with that. In 2016, my democratic partners in Colorado, faced the same level of scrutiny that I'm facing, after the 2020 election. So we see that after every single one, this is my fifth presidential election and every single time, whichever party is not the winner of that, there's always been that movement, and we've seen that strongly since 2000. And so to try and true label, it would not be 100% accurate, and I do absolutely support everything that Justin just said. It's been growing since 2000 and if you've been involved, like I have, for as many years as I have and done as many presidentials as I have, you see that it's really been growing since 2000, we're seeing the same rhetoric from both sides, just growing every single presidential election, and it just keeps going and going and going.
Carly Koppes: If you were involved in elections back in the early 2000s, and you know and understand the black box group, everything that I'm hearing again is like dejavu for me from that, and that stemmed from the democratic side back in the early 2000s. And so to try and to label it one party or the other, I think is disingenuous a little bit because it happens after every single presidential election and it just keeps growing and growing and growing for every single party after every single presidential cycle.
Barb Byrum: I miss the days when our democracy was, when people took advantage of the democracy and how strong our system was, I miss the days when the average person didn't know who their clerk was because those were good days. And our democracy is not partisan, and it seems as though it has been made such and it shouldn't be. And I look forward to working with all of my colleagues, nonpartisan, Republican, and Democrat, to make sure we have the strongest election system in the country, which we do. We have the strongest, most secure election. We ran the strongest, most secure election in 2020, and I don't think enough people understand that and understand all the work that has gone in to doing that and to continue having safe and secure elections.
Weston Wamp: Well, on our last question here, so that we're respectful of everybody's time, Brianna, and then Spenser's going to have a unique perspective and we'll wrap the conversation up. Just for fun, and anecdotally, if you've watched it look and appear more and more like I am in a dungeon, I am not, I'm in a room with a full set of windows, but there's like a wild thunderstorm that's blown in, and so it's this dark in Chattanooga, Tennessee right now. And my wife just text me, and this will be fun for the people who watch later, she text me that all the powers out on her side of town. So if I disappear, we'll know why. But the last question and this, I think, does go to the party and the partisan motives at play here. Talk, Brianna, about the role of poll workers, both historically, but then also now, because you have seen a very formal effort on the Republican side, trained poll workers, for maybe more aggressive action than what a poll worker, the role they've played historically.
Brianna Lennon: I mean, I think in the past, even in the past 10 years, voters know by and large who their poll workers are, you get used to seeing the same people at the same polling locations. And we've had a long time serving poll workers that have been able to do the job, and we're seeing a lot of those people aging out, or also just like with local election authorities, not willing to put up with harassment or the threat of harassment. I think it's also, we talked right at the beginning about the importance of poll workers, in Missouri, we are really like a 90% vote on election day state. We don't have alternatives for voters, we don't have no excuse absentee, we don't have early voting. You've got to get it right on election day, which means we're only relying on election workers to make sure the polling locations open and operate and are staffed all day.
Brianna Lennon: So we're still seeing a real problem with trying to recruit poll workers and to tie back to the resource situation too, 70% of my election costs are just the cost of training and paying for poll workers. So a large portion of what we have to spend our money on is just bringing people in, and if we have to bring in more people, then that increases the cost of elections, when we don't have state resources coming in and we don't have federal resources coming in. So it really all falls apart if we don't have poll workers to make sure that everything works correctly, that essentially is the biggest problem that we have.
Weston Wamp: And Spenser, as you kind of wrap us up here and anybody else who wants to make a final comment, you've got the poll worker and then I guess for political purposes, the distinction between a poll watcher, it's poll watchers also that Republicans seem to be training up to play a specific type of role, to shed some light on maybe what you've seen in New York City, since you've been working elections in this tumultuous time.
Spenser Mestel: Yeah, the poll workers are everything, no one knows us in New York, we do not have that community neighborhood vibe that everyone else seems to enjoy, but it's the demeanor of poll workers can make such a big difference. And for example, I was observing the recount, the statewide recount in Florida in 2018, and in one county, Broward County, the US Senate race was tucked into the bottom left corner underneath the instructions. And so a lot of people missed it, there were a lot of under votes, so a lot of people did not vote that race. The most likely explanation is that they didn't see it. But if someone had told the poll workers, "Make sure you remind voters that there is this race at the bottom left corner," I don't think that would've happened. Even just saying something as, "There's another side to the ballot, make sure you flip it over." Those queues are going to do so much more to increase voter participation, reduce errors, than probably ballot design, than instructions, than any kind of mailer that you want to send out.
Spenser Mestel: Poll workers are the last interaction that a voter has before they vote, and so, so much can be cleared up, so many problems can be avoided if those poll workers are well trained, if they're communicative, if they're in good spirits, if they are not on their 15th hour of a shift and totally exhausted. Voting is intimidating and people get nervous about making a mistake and then putting it in the machine, the machine spitting it out in front of all these people, and voters can allay those concerns or sorry, poll workers can allay those concerns, they can make the process either miserable and intimidating and inaccessible, or they can make it really enjoyable. And I'm sure everyone here has seen a first time voter, a newly naturalized citizen or someone who's just turned 18, and I dare you to not cry when that person comes in and vote because they are so excited. And that's how we hope that everyone feels, but a lot of people have a really poor experience and sometimes it's because of the poll workers themselves.
Weston Wamp: Hey, thank you all for taking the time and for the work that you do and for joining us this afternoon for this conversation.
Justin Roebuck: Thank you for having us.
Barb Byrum: Yeah, thank you for the invitation.
Lisa Deeley: Thank you, hope the weather holds out.
Carly Koppes: Yeah, thanks. Good luck.
Weston Wamp: On the next episode of Swamp Stories, we’ll dissect the admittedly complicated but ultimately inaccurate claims made in the ‘2000 Mules’ documentary, which has recently gained popularity in far right circles.
Weston Wamp: Thanks for listening to “Swamp Stories” presented by Issue One, the country's leading political reform organization that unites Republicans, Democrats, and independents to fix our broken political system. Please subscribe to the podcast and share it with your friends. Even better rate and review it on Apple Podcasts to help us reach more listeners. You can find out more at SwampStories.org. I'm your host, Weston Wamp. A special thank you to Executive Producer Dokhi Fassihian, Senior Producer Evan Ottenfield, Producer Sydney Richards, and Editor Parker Tant from ParkerPodcasting.com. “Swamp Stories” is recorded in Tennessee, edited in Texas, and can be found wherever you listen to podcasts.
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